Curse

Fril Estelin · Sep 25, 2009, 05:32 PM // 17:32

ReTweet: Apparently some Hollywood people are seriously for it, putting a funny (but real) spin on the issue:
http://brinstar.tumblr.com/post/196445334

Snow Bunny · Sep 25, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

ReTweet: Apparently some Hollywood people are seriously for it, putting a funny (but real) spin on the issue:
http://brinstar.tumblr.com/post/196445334

Hollywood should seriously just shut the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up.

If you know anything about the industry and its people you'd discredit their views almost entirely based on that.

**cosyfiep** · Sep 25, 2009, 06:36 PM // 18:36

us medicine has ALWAYS been about symptom relief and never about curing it or preventing it.....that has not changed (nor will it until as Rushin said a new mind set happens----some of which is starting now with the holistic health people).

Most of the time if you go to a doctor in the us they ask you whats wrong (eg, what have you self diagnosed?) and if it seems to fit --that is what it is. If, however; you are unable to figure out whats wrong (you just have a list of symptoms) and the DOCTOR must figure it out---well it had better be something very common or well, guess what you will HAVE whatever is the most common (even if its not

).
And insurance companies are just there for their OWN bottom line, to heck with the people they insure!! They want to make money, for the purpose of making money, not to help those they insure. (just watched one of those news programs about that---until the insurance companies stop over charging for 'inflation' etc....things aint gonna improve much).

oh well---so now it behooves people to do research on whatever ails them since your doctor isnt (they dont get paid for that you know).
You are you own best advocate.

mrmango · Sep 25, 2009, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Hollywood should seriously just shut the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up.

If you know anything about the industry and its people you'd discredit their views almost entirely based on that.

Hasty generalization there, Snow Rabbit.
One's profession or attitude doesn't make what they say untrue automatically.

Eskimoz · Oct 01, 2009, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmango

One's profession or attitude doesn't make what they say untrue automatically.

Politicians and lawyers?

bhavv · Oct 01, 2009, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Hollywood should seriously just shut the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up.

If you know anything about the industry and its people you'd discredit their views almost entirely based on that.

And of course, anyone could say exactly the same thing about people who opposed socialised health care, like this idiot Glenn Beck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA7-BvVDV10&yt

TBH, just about every argument against socialised healthcare is mostly complete bull, but I couldnt care about it as I live in the UK and get free healthcare.

The opinion of people who oppose socialised healthcare is basically to leave people who are sick and unable to afford healthcare to die. The argument of immigrants using the healthcare system is also pretty pointless when this still doesnt address the thousands of American nationals who still cannot afford it whether they are working full time but not earning enough to pay for it, or are too sick to work.

Rocky Raccoon · Oct 01, 2009, 12:57 PM // 12:57

The solution for those who don't have health care in US, "DON'T GET SICK".

bhavv · Oct 01, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

The solution for those who don't have health care in US, "DON'T GET SICK".

And what a wonderful solution that is indeed

(- Sarcastic post alert for people who are slow)

Shursh · Oct 01, 2009, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

The opinion of people who oppose socialised healthcare is basically to leave people who are sick and unable to afford healthcare to die.

Thanks for reminding me what my opinion is, I had almost forgotten! /endsarcasm.

Nearly all the arguments against socialized healthcare, at least in this thread, have been purely logical, with a focus on funding methods and feasibility, and comparisons and contrasts with other socialized countries.

We had dabbled in the ethics of "taking from one and giving to another", and it is this point which could possibly be argued, though most are purely emotional and not driven by fact.

I really don't understand how someone can read through this entire thread and still be unconvinced that socialized healthcare would be terrible for this country.

Rocky Raccoon · Oct 01, 2009, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shursh

I really don't understand how someone can read through this entire thread and still be unconvinced that socialized healthcare would be terrible for this country.

I myself have insurance so I could say screw the ones who don't; But many of those who don't have insurance are not people on welfare as they get coverage. It good honest people who work and can barely pay for their day to day expenses and there is nothing left for insurance. Just look at the people who show up at free clinics across the country, it is sad that we look no better than some third worlds countries. Socialized medicine might not be the answer, but there is no denying we have a problem and it needs to fixed.

Burst Cancel · Oct 01, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

From what I've seen, most proponents of socialized health care focus on the emotional impact of individuals without health care, while largely ignoring the practical issues of how socialized medicine is paid for, how to prevent or limit fraud while at the same time allowing people to get the care they need in a timely fashion, how to calculate fair compensation rates for health workers and companies (socialized medicine essentially gives up fair-market pricing mechanisms, so the government will need to come up with a better system of pricing - good luck with that). They also ignore the fact that health care is a limited resource; these are typically the people that loudly proclaim that "health care is a basic human right!" as if saying so not only makes it true, but also silences all debate. It's all well and good to say that every human being deserves clean food and water, shelter, clothing, health care, etc., but none of these things is free or unlimited - and even if they were, the logistics and overhead of actually getting the right things to the people that need them are non-trivial.

Most systems of socialized health care existing in the world today have fundamental, systemic flaws that often aren't appreciated by the blissfully ignorant consumer getting "free healthcare". Here's a recent Washington Post article regarding Japan's system and some of the tradeoffs they've had to make: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090601630.html

What really stood out to me in that article was the mindset of the mother, Hana Mukai, who "cannot think of anything wrong with health care in Japan", yet has to wait 75 minutes to see a doctor. She "never buys over-the-counter drugs ... because prescribed drugs for children are also free." She has never checked to see how much she pays through payroll deductions for health-care premiums.. "I know my medical fee is going to be cheap, so I have never, ever thought about how much it will cost me to go to the doctor," said Mukai. Absolutely astounding - and disgusting.

Eskimoz · Oct 01, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Most systems of socialized health care existing
From what I've seen, most proponents of socialized health

stop generalizing.
----
There are emotional idiots on both sides of the issue.

You also have "YOU LIE!" and "OMG DEATH PANELS"

there's a lot of bullcrap surrounding the argument

Eskimoz · Oct 01, 2009, 10:37 PM // 22:37

What I particularly like about the debate is the politicians against health-care....and how they're received so many donations from health insurance companies....

Burst Cancel · Oct 01, 2009, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eskimoz

stop generalizing.

First of all, that most systems of socialized health care have systemic flaws isn't a generalization, it's a fact; where different political groups disagree is whether those flaws are worth the benefits. Ideally, we could have health care that is low cost, open to everyone, and allows everyone to decide their own doctors and treatments, but the best anyone can do is two out of three.

And as for the emotional appeal of socialized health care, that is absolutely the most common argument that I've seen, by far. This thread is itself a good example, actually. Nowhere do I say that proponents of socialized health care are incapable of rational discussion.

As an aside, were we to go down the path of socialized health care, I would actually be in favor of death panels. I don't see how anyone can expect to control costs otherwise, especially given how collectively expensive end-of-life care is. Nobody likes to put a price on human life, but it's something we already have to do (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life).

Fril Estelin · Oct 02, 2009, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

First of all, that most systems of socialized health care have systemic flaws isn't a generalization, it's a fact;

Oh boy, he knows "our" healthcare systems better than we do. I should read about it in the USA-ians newspaper, they surely know better. (of course poor people don't read them, they're too busy abusing the free system /endscarcasm)

Rocky Raccoon · Oct 02, 2009, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

First of all, that most systems of private health care have systemic flaws isn't a generalization, it's a fact; where different political groups disagree is whether those flaws are worth the benefits. Ideally, we could have health care that is low cost, open to everyone, and allows everyone to decide their own doctors and treatments, but the best anyone can do is two out of three.

I think this is also a valid statement.

Shursh · Oct 02, 2009, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Oh boy, he knows "our" healthcare systems better than we do.

He probably does.

However, feel free to use your next post to dispell any myths.

bhavv · Oct 03, 2009, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Since people like throwing their pointless facts around, heres some I found from a quick google search -
The USA has the highest Medical costs per person, and medical costs are also the primary reason for personal bankruptcy in the USA.

What a wonderful medical system the USA already has.

As a fact, socialised medical care would reduce the costs of healthcare in the USA, not increase them.

Snow Bunny · Oct 03, 2009, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Since people like throwing their pointless facts around, heres some I found from a quick google search -
The USA has the highest Medical costs per person, and medical costs are also the primary reason for personal bankruptcy in the USA.

What a wonderful medical system the USA already has.

As a fact, socialised medical care would reduce the costs of healthcare in the USA, not increase them.

bhavv,

considering the fact that I've lived in the UK for 11 out of my 21 years of life, I will tell you I know just how mediocre your UK health system is, and that my parents paid exorbitant amounts of money in taxes for crappy care.

ALSO

SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY GETTING TAXED 50 CENTS ON THE DOLLAR SHOULD BE TAXED MORE TO PAY FOR OTHERS.

I do not care about other people. Really, I don't. Considering the fact that they don't give a shit about me, why should I care about them? Because they're less privileged than me? Great, so I should be charitable to people who like to speak of me in demeaning terms because I can be charitable to them?

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that.

Fril Estelin · Oct 03, 2009, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I do not care about other people. Really, I don't. Considering the fact that they don't give a shit about me, why should I care about them? Because they're less privileged than me? Great, so I should be charitable to people who like to speak of me in demeaning terms because I can be charitable to them?

Then, if you trully live by this principle (me me me because no one gives a shit about me), you'll surely accept that people acting on it against you are as right as you are? Hence, majority wins and you may know that the majority is not privileged...

I personally don't live with this pov, I'm also privileged, but I don't think the way you do. I'm not saying that your pov is ridiculous either, except when you overgeneralise.

An interesting read in passing: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...rovision-us-uk

Quote:

Over the last month President Obama's attempts to live up to his election promise to extend healthcare to all Americans has stalled in the face of a sustained rightwing guerrilla attack. Opponents of Obama's reforms have succeeded in distracting attention from Manley and the 46 million other medically uninsured, swinging the focus instead on to the "evils" of publicly funded healthcare. The fear tactics were epitomised by Sarah Palin's wholly inaccurate claim that the reforms would set up "death panels" that would force euthanasia on to older people.

Such scaremongering has dismayed and infuriated Sharon Lee, the doctor who now treats Manley in Kansas City. "I'm very angry, very angry," she says. "Many of the people I treat have already been in front of a death panel and have lost – a death panel controlled by insurance companies. I see people dying at least monthly because we have been unable to get them what they needed."

And here is the amazing points where money gets precedence over health:

Quote:

That Catch 22 again: no work, no insurance, no treatment. Except in this case it was Beth who went without treatment, in order to put her husband's dire needs first. He receives ongoing specialist care that costs them $500 a go, leaving nothing for her. So she stopped seeing a doctor, and effectively began self-medicating. She cut down from two different insulin drugs to regulate her diabetes to one, and restricted her heart drugs. "I do what I think I need to do to keep four steps out of hospital. I know that's not the right thing, but I can't justify seeing the doctor when my family's already in money trouble."

The problem is that she hasn't kept herself four steps out of hospital. Her health deteriorated and earlier this year she became bedridden. Even then, it took her family several days to persuade her to go to the emergency room because she didn't want to incur the hospital costs. "It was hard enough without that," she says.

After an initial consultation, Lee has now booked Gabaree for a new round of tests for her diabetes and is arranging for free medication. "It's wonderful," Gabaree says. "I'm so blessed. I didn't know you could get this sort of help."

That she sees basic healthcare as a blessing, not as a right, speaks volumes about attitudes among the mass of the working poor. Also revealing is the fact that Gabaree has absolutely no idea about the debate raging across America. She hasn't even heard of Obama's push for health reform, nor the Republican efforts to prevent it. "I don't watch much television," she says.

Quote:

She rattles off a litany of horror stories. There was the man who walked into the clinic with a brain tumour. It took Lee three months to get him an MRI scan and another two to get an appointment with a neurosurgeon. Or the patient whose nerves in his neck were pushed against his spinal cord so that he lost use of both arms; by the time Lee found a way of getting him an MRI he was so sick he had to be operated on immediately. Or the woman who had such heavy periods she would wind up in ER every three months requiring a blood transfusion. What she really needed was a hysterectomy. "It took us almost a year to beg hospitals until she finally did get a hysterectomy," Lee says.